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Hey Frank, why can’t I reply to this on The Huffington Post???

Frank Schaeffer wrote a piece that appeared in The Huffington Post entitled Glenn Beck and The 9/12 Marchers: Subversives From Within I found it a little annoying I wasn't able to comment on the article, most news websites these days make provision for discussion... In a fit of aggravation, I will simply reprint, and respond to Schaeffers rhetoric here...

"Who are these people?! Where do they come from?!"

Perhaps had you attended these functions personally, you would be better equipped to accurately answer such questions. Since you have not, I, as one who has attended scores of these events and spoken to at least as many people, will help guide you through the discovery process...

"Ordinary Americans might wonder why anyone would stoop so low as to follow Glenn Beck, Fox News and Dick Armey (and their corporate sponsors masquerading as "FreedomWorks") as they organize their "9/12 March On Washington" to cynically exploit the 9/11 attack."

With all due respect, I take exception to your presumption to be able to speak for "ordinary Americans..." A Fundamentalist upbringing such as your own separates you from "ordinary Americans", it does not bring you closer to them. If anyone is out to "exploit the 9/11 attack", which is a poor choice of words given the reality of the situation, you might consider it's the desperate act of an American people exploited by a government who has quietly abdicated it's legislative responsibilities to the likes of The Apollo Alliance. How can YOU as a "journalist" ignore the reality our representatives neither read, nor write bills they're attempting to pass into law? What else do they have to do if they're NOT going to do the job they were entrusted with???

"Patriotic Americans might question the organizer's aim to provide a media forum for dimwitted right wingers to scream "Liar!" "Socialist!" "Antichrist!" "Muslim!" "Death Panels!" "He's not an American!" and so on and on and on about the commander in chief charged with defending us from further attacks. And some people might even cry "shame on you!" to the more mainstream Republicans participating that include Dick Armey of FreedomWorks, as well as GOP Reps. Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee, Mike Pence of Indiana, Tom Price of Georgia, and South Carolina GOP Sen. Jim DeMint."

Patriotic Americans showed up in record numbers at The DC Protest BECAUSE our president is in fact a liar (what happened to campaign PROMISES of no more lobbyists, govt. transparency, no new taxes for the middle class? ["not one dime" I believe is the exact quote]. He is in fact a SOCIALIST if not a full blown Marxist as indicated by: Taking over the banks, taking over the auto industry, attempting to take over health care [and pretty much anything else he can get his hands around]. If you truly believe none of these things are a problem, it is you sir, who is the dimwit. Just a thought...

"Ordinary folks from Planet Earth may ask why the Republican Party, right-wing activists and members of the Religious Right seem so unreachable with mere facts let alone decency and decorum. (As the proud father of a US Marine who fought in Afghanistan I'm particularly outraged that these people would exploit the 9/11 attacks after my son and others were prepared to give their lives in response to our enemies.)"

Once again I ask, how is it YOU are the spokesperson for "ordinary folks"? Once again you also make the accusation we're somehow "exploiting the 9/11 attacks"... Tell me Mr. Schaeffer, I don't see you actually quoting anyone in your assessment of these people, at least no one who's attended an event. How many people have you confronted at these events?

"As a former Religious Right leader, who was raised (and home-schooled by my Evangelical-leader parents, Francis and Edith Schaeffer) in the movement, let me explain just why the ordinary rules of decency don't apply to the right these days."

Such a dubious distinction in no way qualifies you to speak for the majority of patriotic Americans, but this should prove an interesting expose' as to what screwed up your world view, so please, continue!

"Let me also answer this question: Who are these people?"

Protecting Your Children From Satan"

Already you're going down the path of insanity Not one person at the rally in DC [I was there ALL DAY] said anything about protecting children from Satan, nor did I see any signs making any such reference, nor have I experienced ANY such individuals at any of the events I've attended.

"A big part of the answer to understanding the heightened climate of outright hate and fear of the "other" is the home school and Christian school movement. It is a modern incarnation of the anti-federal government ideology of earlier firebrands such as John Calhoun who was the 7th Vice President and a Southern politician in the 19th century. Calhoun embraced slavery, states' rights, limited government, and said that Americans should secede from the union if it went against their wishes. (See: "Calhoun Conservatism Raises Its Ugly Head" by Mike Lux in the Huffington Post Sept 11/09.)"

You would be incorrect... The vast majority of the attendees of the 9/12 Tea Party were much like myself... Educated individuals who understand the America our Founders created for us and that it is a mere shadow of it's former self, not only because of Obama, but because of a slow progression toward socialism which has been going on in this country for the last 150 years or so... This "battle" of ideologies is nothing new, it's only become so inflamed recently that the REAL "ordinary Americans" are waking up to what the government, and the "media" formally known as main stream are trying to do do them. Perhaps you'd do well to study some actual history as opposed to merely being content to quote The Huffington Post for references. If nothing else, you would at least APPEAR to be a more credible "journalist".

"In the early 1970s the evangelicals like my late father and James Dobson decided that the our society had fallen so far "away from God" and so far from "America's Christian history" that it was time to metaphorically decamp to not just another country but to another planet:. In other words virtually unnoticed by the media and mainstream political operatives, a big chunk of American society seceded from the union in all but name.

What they did is turn the white race-based in "Christian school" movement of the 1950s into a countercultural phenomena. As tens of thousands of new Christian schools opened, it was no longer just about "protecting" white kids from minorities and African-Americans. It was about protecting your children from Satan in other words the United States government's long reach through the public school system.

To protect your children from Satan -- in other words mainstream, open patriotic and pluralistic America -- you either kept them at home where mom and dad could teach the children right from wrong or send them to a cloistered private evangelical/fundamentalist school. At home or in school you used curriculum prepared by the likes of James--beat-your-child-and-dare-to-discipline-Dobson, RJ-slavery-was-a-good-thing-Rushdoony, or many and other right-wing anti-American activists. That curriculum presented "secular America" as downright evil. Hating the USA became next to godliness."

You certainly do paint a twisted picture, and as I myself have no first hand experience with such a lifestyle, the only comment I can make is this: At the very least, this situation you're describing is far from what "ordinary Americans" experienced growing up...  It seems to me you're implying that this "radical" upbringing is one of the threads that binds the protesters at these Tea Parties. You are WRONG. I don't dispute your experiences growing up, but to project these experiences on to such a wide demographic of people is irresponsible at best. I can assure you from personal experience, the people at these events LOVE their country and have recognized their responsibility as stewards of our liberty. Not one person I've encountered at any event could be perceived as "hating" America, your inference we do is highly offensive.

"The Anti-American Home Schoolers Come Of Age

We are now several generations into this experiment of holier-than-thou withdrawal from our American mainstream culture. If you wonder who it is that's both running and underwriting organizations such as the Family Research Council, Focus On The Family, Freedom Works and other organizers of the 9/12 March and who are most faithful followers the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh or viewers of Fox News your answer is: it's the home school/Christian school generation of men and women now hitting their thirties and even forties who might as well have been raised on a different planet."

An outrageous assertion you can't even begin to back up. Perhaps it is this kind of irresponsible editorializing that is giving the media formally known as mainstream such a bad rap. I mean seriously, you're stereotyping a huge cross section of Americans based on your own limited experiences growing up... I must say, for one raised in such a "right-wing" household, you've transitioned in to liberalism quite nicely... Liberals seem to have a penchant for projecting their own condition onto the state of their fellow man. That's precisely what you're doing here... Asserting that "This is how I grew up, therefore this is how they grew up..." Again, I'm not questioning the validity of your experience, just it's blanket application to the approximately 1.7 million people who showed up in DC on 9/12.

"What are these home school and Christian school children taught? Here's a quote from one of the far right's leading home school curricula creators:

"The stranger in ancient Israel did not serve as a judge, although he received all the benefits of living in the land. The political question is this: By what biblical standard is the pagan to be granted the right to bring political sanctions against God's people? We recognize that unbelievers are not to vote in Church elections. Why should they be allowed to vote in civil elections in a covenanted Christian nation? Which judicial standards will they impose? By what other standard than the Bible?"

(Gary North of Institute For Christian Economics)

The generation raised on the belief that the US government is illegitimate because it is trying to "impose" non-biblical laws on people has hit the streets. These are the people who grew up indoctrinated into an alternative reality. Today they are out there waving signs of Obama dressed as Hitler. They are buying weapons and ammunition. Some are in the growing and revived militia movement. They are Dick Armey's foot soldiers. People like Armey and Beck can count on the ignorance of their dupes. It's against their religion to read a real newspaper, watch anything but Fox or go to a real school.

Evangelical Red Guards

Over the last 30 years Evangelical fundamentalists have managed to do what Chairman Mao failed to do with his Red Guards: indoctrinate a whole generation of evangelical people to see their own society as the enemy and act like subversives from within the culture. These people are more anti-American than Al-Qaeda. The "Christian Reconstruction" movement is working for theocracy. Reconstructionism (of which Gary North is one leader) says that the law given for the political and legal ordering of ancient Israel is intended for all people at all times.

Reconstructionist leader David Barton gives a definition:

"The Christian goal for the world is the universal development of Biblical theocratic republics, in which every area of life is redeemed and placed under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the rule of God's law."

I've been a Christian (not a very good one, but a Christian all the same) all my life and to link Christianity to Mao, Al-Qaeda, and any other such foolishness is utterly ridiculous. Assuming there is this "Christian Reconstruction" movement going on, these people are typical of the fringe you find in any group. To say they represent a substantial number of Tea Party protesters is completely irresponsible, if not downright disingenuous.

"Who are Glenn Beck's foot soldiers? In effect what we have is a group of indoctrinated people who have never actually lived in America because they were brought up deliberately cloistered from it by their parents and churches. Because they are legally "Americans" they can move freely around our democracy trying to destroy it working within the United States. Today they are acting like a fifth column, no, they are a fifth column. Some of them have not just seceded metaphorically, there is even a growing movement for states to secede literally."

Umm, okay, you've obviously got a problem with the church, we get it... Let's move on and consider Beck for a moment, shall we? Glenn Beck has been instrumental in exposing Communists within our own government [Van Jones], ACORN corruption, and the abdication of legislative responsibility by our representatives who are deferring to unelected officials within The Apollo Alliance [authors of the Scamulus bill]... Kindly explain to me how any one of these FACTS can be construed to be the actions of one who "hates America"? You're sitting there writing a smear piece on people who are against Communists, against having their tax dollars fund corrupt organizations [ACORN] and who expect our representatives to actually write and READ the bills they would pass into law... C'mon Frank... Who's the America hater here, huh?

"Today the right wing America haters actually are doing to America what no "illegal" immigrants ever do: work to overthrow our democracy and replace it with a theocracy. The home-schooled, privately educated brainwashed horde are an antidemocratic, fundamentally anti-American political movement. For a start they do not accept the results of the last election."

If this group you're describing does in fact exist, the inference they have sufficient numbers to "overthrow democracy" puts you firmly into the tinfoil hat crowd... These "extremists" you seem to fear are a small minority at best, if they were a vast majority as you seem to think, any action on their part couldn't be defined as an "overthrow of democracy", but rather democracy in action.

"Liberal/Progressive Wishful Thinking and Blindness

Meanwhile those ordinary Americans including many Democrats, progressives and liberal's who work within the system can hardly imagine that there are people so far outside the lines of what they regard as ordinary decent behavior that the progressives seem psychologically unequipped to deal with this reality."

The fact you equate "progressives and liberal's who work within the system" to "ordinary Americans" blatantly reveals you to be a carbon copy of those within your group you lament, psychologically unequipped to deal with reality... ALL major, reputable polls reveal the vast majority of Americans consider themselves Conservative. Of course, you have to ignore such information because it sweeps the foundation from beneath your faulty rhetoric.

"President Obama is one such person."

An "ordinary" American??? Dude, you need to lay off the Kool-Aid...

"His talk of bipartisanship is a pipe dream. Why?

Bipartisan Pipe Dream

Because you can't be bipartisan with people who don't play by the same rules--say accepting the will of the people -- as you do."

What of accepting the will of the 1.7 million who showed up in DC from all around the country? You're ready to dismiss the entire group as right-wing religious zealots, incapable of reasonable discourse... How are you any different than those you accuse???

"Obama is not alone in his gentlemanly wishful thinking. For instance consider New York Times book review editor Sam Tanenhaus saying in his book (The Death of Conservatism) that the the conservative movement is over.

Tanenhaus rightly points out that the extremism of the right has driven away traditional Republicans. I ought to know! I, as a life-long Republican and former Religious Right activist helped create this situation. But Tanenhaus and others like him just don't get the fact that the far right is resurgent, in fact more dangerous than ever as a wounded animal is dangerous. They don't get it because kindly liberals also live in a bubble."

Ah yes, "kindly liberals" are second to none when it comes to playing the victim... I will agree without question they do in fact live in a bubble, one you yourself have obviously taken up residence in. The problem with this bubble, as with all bubbles, is that the thin, translucent layer which separates, also distorts the view of reality. You are a living testament to this fact.

"The kindly liberal reasonable bubble of an open liberal culture in which reason, argument in fact prevails is far removed from the other America, one of militia training camps, fundamentalist churches, parents who follow Dobson's "parenting" advice by "breaking" their children and whipping them (as Dobson tells them to do in his books) and thus raising the damaged and dangerous automatons of biblical vengeance and sadism."

LOL, your Kool-Aid cup runneth over... Tell me Frank, how many people do you think died because of a "kindly liberal" like Rachel Carson? Being a man "open to facts" as you are, one would think you'd come armed with more of them in your attempt to vilify a group of Americans you disagree with... So far, we're just getting The World According to Frank...

"The Last Chess Game You'll Ever Play

What reasonable people don't understand is this: if one person is playing chess abiding by the rules and their opponent is losing at the chess game it may appear that they have lost the match. But what if one person is willing to change the rules? For instance, if you're playing chess against someone who -- if they start losing -- takes a lead pipe out of their back pocket and smashes you over the head with it the "rules" change."

Based on what I've read so far, I seriously question your ability to opine on behalf of "reasonable people", especially given the weakness of that last metaphor Let it be said, I have no love for extremists on either side of the spectrum, but you've clearly let a bad experience on the far right send you off the deep end in an uncontrolled pendulum swing to the far left... The vast majority of conservative Americans DO in fact play by the rules as it is the very nature of TRUE Conservatism to do so. It is typically the liberal left, with it's embrace of moral relativism that more easily descends to a place where rules become secondary to the goal itself.

"Serial Killers

The real story of the Religious Right and their power to destroy is told by Max Blumenthal in Republican Gomorrah, and Jeff Sharlet in The Family and by me in Crazy For God. What our books have in common is the understanding that you can lose in the political system but still "win" -- according to your destructive agenda -- if your agenda is non-political but rather religious and apocalyptic in nature.

To understand the Religious Right today and how dangerous they are don't think politics-- think serial killers who "win" by "getting even" with the society they perceive as having disrespected them. It isn't about facts. It isn't about election results. It isn't about truth. It's about victimhood and revenge on the "elite" in other words on everyone not like you. It is about the weird combination of sadism and masochism Blumenthal describes in his book."

You people are describing a "Religious Right" I've never even heard of, and while I won't deny their existence, to imply the Tea Parties and 9/12 movement are fueled by this type of person would be a bald faced lie. I will take this opportunity to remind you yet again, I've attended scores of these events and have NEVER met anyone like you're describing here... I will also ask again, how many of these events have you attended personally, Mr. Schaeffer?

"Think Republicans who have no plan of their own for health care reform other than stopping Obama. Think "Deathers" and "Birthers" who are all about de-legitimizing our system as "evil" because it includes rights for gays."

Liberals love telling people what and how to think

"New Rules: Anarchy and Scorched Earth

What those who think that the power of the Religious Right and/or the Republicans is ended don't understand is that it's only ended if you believe in the rules. When I say the rules I mean, for instance, that if you lose an election the other side gets to legislate. However if your opponent is not interested in the rules and is, A) waiting for Jesus to return and consume all the "infidels" or, B) you are just waiting to take that "lead pipe" out of your back pocket -- say go to public meetings and intimidate people by carrying loaded weapons to those meetings -- or worse, maybe even use them to shoot down someone -- all polite bets are off!"

Let's start here: "...if you lose an election the other side gets to legislate" With all due respect, you sir, are behaving like a child... First of all, The Dems currently enjoy a super-majority which enables them to pass anything they want without the help of an anemic GOP. Secondly, it's not about winning or losing, it's about doing what's best for the country, i.e, uphold The Constitution of The United States. As for your constant attempts to imply the threat of violence comes from the right [again with the lead pipe], if you look at the DC Protest, over a million in attendance, NOT ONE ARREST OR INCIDENT OF VIOLENCE. G20 Summit, thousands of protesters, 83 arrests, $50k in property damage. Surely as one who is an advocate "of an open liberal culture in which reason, argument in fact prevails", you must be moved to reconsider your position on where the perceived "threat" lies...

"The fact of the matter is we now know what the experiment in raising children outside of the American mainstream means. It means that there's a whole subculture within American culture that mistrusts facts precisely because they are facts. They glory an alternative view of not just politics but of reality."

Simply saying "The fact of the matter is..." doesn't make it so, especially in this case. Again, it's clear you've had a bad experience with the "Religious Right" as a child but you need to grow up and stop projecting adolescent stereotypes on America en masse. This limited perspective demonstrated by you and those who live in your bubble, serves only to fan the flames of division between "right" and "left". Left to their own accord, the vast majority of Americans can find common ground regardless of political affiliation [one of the reasons registered independents are on the rise as BOTH major parties lose support.]. People such as yourself offer NOTHING to that end.

"They frequent the creationist museum and look at dioramas of dinosaurs cavorting with humans. They believe that gay people choose to be gay just stick it to the rest of us and could change if they invite Jesus into their hearts. They believe that before you run for governor of Alaska, for instance, you should get a preacher specializing in "casting out the spirit of witchcraft" to anoint you so you can win against the demonic forces of secularism -- as was the case with Sarah Palin when she first ran for governor. They believe that the NRA was telling the truth when they claimed that Obama would "take away your guns" and so have loaded up with more guns and ammunition. They think the time has come to rise up and overthrow the government. And yes, most of them also believe that black people are inferior to whites, so to have a black man in the White House is itself "proof" of American's fall from grace."

I find it immensely amusing that your writing style is a carbon copy of the style used by liberal posters on CL... You would fit right in around there Liberals seem to believe that giving "closing argument" means to simply vomit as many stereotypes as one can manage into one paragraph and be done with it. I find it extremely hard to believe you were ever a "right-wing" anything in this life, given you exhibit all the idiosyncrasies associated with good liberal behavior... Quoting HuffPo, the constant projecting, the liberal dispensation of stereotypes... You run the liberal playbook line by line my friend...

"There's no arguing with such people and no winning against them using mere elections. They are not playing by American rules. Their idea of winning is not fair elections but Armageddon."

I'm sure such people exist, but they have nothing to do with the 9/12 Project or Tea Parties. You're beginning to strike me as a left-handed Glenn Beck wannabe, with the possible exception for the fact his sensationalism is actually grounded in reality, whereas yours is rooted in a dysfunctional youth...

"Religious Right Growing Again

Those who say that the Religious Right and the far right have lost their power are looking through the lens of rule-obeying democratic liberalism. They don't understand that their opponents will always carry the proverbial lead pipe in his or her back pocket. To the progressives who think that the Religious Right and the right wing has lost its power I say this: You're correct when it comes to political facts (for the moment) of the last election, but you're dead wrong when it comes to the way revolutions work."

Rule-obeying, democratic liberalism??? Surely you jest, sir... Isn't there like 17 positions still open under Tim Geithner [didn't HE have a tax problem?] but they can't fill them because nobody can take the vetting process? What about Charlie Rangel? What about Kathleen Sebelius? What about any of the zillion other tax cheats in the Obama administration? Don't get me wrong, they exist in The GOP as well, but then again I'm not bestowing the virtue of "rule-obeying" to groups as haphazardly as yourself. You seem to have a habit of making such generalizations of large groups.

"Second American "Tea Party" Revolution

Revolutionaries never have played by the rules. They don't have to win by the rules. They hate the rules. They don't live in a rule based or fact based universe.

They believe they are serving a "higher cause" so it makes the "mere human" rules unimportant. They're ready to shout down opponents, call out "liar" about someone telling the truth, undermine public meetings and/or commit physical violence. They are also willing to become the tools of cynical corporate lobbyists using them for ulterior purposes, say stalling health care reform."

More generalizations based largely in fantasy... Your assessment of revolutionaries is completely ignorant and designed to prey upon the uneducated, unless you yourself are as uneducated and truly believe what you write is accurate. If what we we're talking about was REAL HEALTH CARE REFORM, there wouldn't be such a clamor over it. The fact you believe this health care bill is somehow a good thing reveals you to be either ignorant, or in the tank for the agenda. There really aren't many other explanations...

"In order to "win" -- in other words destroy our country as we know it -- the far right merely needs to be true to its own rule which is, to put it very mildly, that coloring outside the lines is not only perfectly okay but required."

Barack Obama and his ilk have repeatedly expressed their desire to "fundamentally change The United States of America"... I don't hear that message coming from anywhere on the right... Care to cite a source corroborating such fantastic assertions?

"Conclusion

Not only do the Religious Right distrust facts to them facts are evil. You are "satanic" if you believe in evolution. You're also satanic if you believe health-care reform is about anything but death panels and abortions. You're satanic if you don't believe that gay people are evil or that if you think sex education is sensible. You're satanic if you don't believe in Satan!"

Again, I'm sure these people exist, but after attending scores of these events, I've never met ONE.

"The tactics that progressives develop for actually winning against the right have to involve far more than politics. They have to also involve ceaseless vigilance against an enemy that has now -- literally -- raised up an armed, paranoid and deluded alternative nation within our borders and created a fifth column to undermine the United States and our democracy. They need to be called out by the rest of us in no uncertain terms."

Your passion for your beliefs apparently match that of those you decry, but unfortunately, the disconnect from reality seems to be a more glaring commonality. You appear to be the polar opposite of this "Religious Right" you so vehemently oppose... Intolerance and insanity resides comfortably on either side of the political spectrum. It's sounds like you've just changed sides without changing anything which constitutes the essence of what's bad about extremism of any kind. Do yourself a favor and let the anger go... You'll see things much more clearly...

"Long term the Religious Right subculture has to be understood, then exposed for what it is: an anti-democracy movement built on willful lies with potentially violent underpinnings in the thrall of an apocalyptic cult of revenge on everyone not like "us." It is also the useful tool of corporate lobbyists. Who use these shock troops of the proudly ignorant for non-ideological reasons."

Once more I will say, I'm sure these people exist, but your constant attempts to associate them with Tea Party goers and the 9/12 protests is simply WRONG. The overwhelming majority of people I've come into contact with are educated, respectful, and extremely friendly. Again I will point to the difference in behavior exhibited on 9/12 in DC as compared to the G20 protests. Millions of us got together with our "lead pipes" yet not one incidence of violence... A few thousand "kindly liberals" get together at the G20, resulting in 83 arrests and $50k in private property damage. These are FACTS you apparently don't want to take into consideration...

"The Religious Right may have lost a round politically but they've still got a "lead pipe" in their back pocket. They can still "win" by making the rest of us lose our democracy by increments. They will even spit in the rest of our faces by exploiting the national tragedy of 9/11 in their 9/12 March."

Again with the lead pipe... Let me explain it to you, Frank... When a majority mobilizes for a cause, any cause, it is a more vigorous display of democracy in action than turning out at the polls to vote. In case you didn't know, our government is not an actual democracy, it is a constitutional republic... Do you know the difference? Do you even care?
No lead pipe is necessary when dealing with those who make it a point to eschew reality... For someone who trumpets the virtues "of an open liberal culture in which reason, argument in fact prevails", one would have thought your rantings would contain more of them as opposed to your back-pack full of stereotypes... Better yet, attend the next Tea Party near you and see if you can find any of these Bible-bangers wielding a lead pipe your so afraid of and get back to us... I triple-dog dare you

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